MediaZest – “Project Completion” update, what about some insight on results for a year finished approaching four months ago?
Published 2 days ago
AGM day for AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) and it has pulled something out of the hat. The shares have shot higher, death spiral outfit Bracknor is history and Advanced doesn’t look like going bust now for at least 4 months. But is the deal as good as believed? Er..no.
Published 3 days ago
Cynical Bear wonders whether there might be a read across to AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) from today’s news from suspended-pending-clarification Kin Group (KIN) in the wake of its announcement that its funding partner had walked because the share price had fallen so far. Certainly, given the cash-back situation for any loan note conversion by Bracknor into Advanced shares there looks to be a point at which the situation breaks down..
Published 4 days ago
Shares in Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO ) are again tumbling on this fine summer's day. Oh what joy it is to be alive. 350p at peak ramp less than two years ago, they are now just 10.75p to sell. Ouch, I just love the smell of burning share certificates belonging to Bulletin Board Morons in the morning. So what crisis looms? Take your pick.
Published 16 days ago
The stench of desperation at AIM POS Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) is overpowering.It knows that insolvency looms, that the money is running out fast ( within weeks?) and that a blizzard of share sales from death spiral provider Bracknor will obliterate the share price in the last few days. The board know it. The advisers must know it. But they cannot bring themselves to admit it. The pretence goes on for a while yet. And thus today we have an RNS.
Published 25 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has released its full Annual Report. Having looked yesterday at a few things I thought it would be worth a second look – especially in the light of a clean audit report from RPG Crouch Chapman. Mea culpa to myself and Tom who expected something different, but hang on a minute…
Published 31 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has announced the latest death spiral on steroids conversion by Bracknor: £400,000 into 1.6 million shares. But with the shares sitting a country mile below the 25p nominal price they have to pay £190,000 back. That works out as 11.875p per share and thus means that Bracknor gets its new confetti at just (effectively) 13.125p. Not bad, bearing in mind that the lowest daily VWAP came in at 15.79p.
Published 39 days ago
I have never seen a loan like this. It is sheer desperation from a company that faces imminent insolvency. Make no mistake, Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) is on the way out and corporate death will occur very soon indeed.
Published 40 days ago
Shares in doomed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) are now 15.25p to sell, compared to a 25p nominal price. That means that as death spiral provider Bracknor desperately tried to convert c£3 million on loan notes into shares to flog to eliminate its exposure under the spoof arrangement with Advanced it will demand fees of 40p for every £1 of loan note converted. As it scrambles to convert notes and flog shares before the fat lady waddles onto stage from the wings (where she is already warming up), the share price will continue to tank making things even worse. So what to do?
Published 45 days ago
With its hand forced by my article HERE, Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has clarified, i.e. changed, the terms of its death spiral deal with loan sharks Bracknor. It states "This reaffirms Bracknor's prior and on-going support for the Company and its shareholders." Dr Michael Sinclair you are talking bollocks. It has changed a death spiral to a death spiral on steroids.
Published 50 days ago
Wakey wakey Michael Sinclair and the other tossers who run Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO). Time to get out of the luxury gym ( membership fees paid by grateful shareholders) - you need to be issuing a statement don't you? Bracknor? 10 days? Capital Reorganisation? Ring any bells? Come on, call your useless PR man Paul Queenie McManus and tell him to stop promoting the Eden fraud and get a release ready for you.
Published 59 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has this morning announced another conversion of death-spiral loan notes by Bracknor. That is not news – there have been plenty already and there are many more to come. But for the third time in succession we seem to have different terms being applied. Surely it is time for the company to tell the market what is going on?
Published 60 days ago
I can’t help but notice that in the wake of a couple of Bracknor death-spiral loan note conversions, shares in AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy have rather slipped again. Indeed, having scraped onto the 27.5p watermark on Monday last week (and thus avoided an EGM to drop the nominal price of the shares) as the result of spoof boardroom buying, it has been one-way traffic ever since, down to 22.75p last seen.
Published 65 days ago
Well, well. How do you issue shares at a discount to par? Simple: pay a whopping fee to the subscriber. AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has announced another loan note conversion under its death-spiral funding package with Bracknor and a new fee seems to have appeared which might just derail discussions between the company and its auditor as they work on the going concern statement for the forthcoming FY16 results due out by the end of next month. Oh dear, oh dear.
Published 66 days ago
Well this is most bizarre! Lobster-potted Bracknor has converted another lump of its death-spiral loan notes. That, of course, is not a great surprise until you study the detail of yesterday morning’s announcement from AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO), where we discover that the conversion shares have been issued not at the lowest daily volume-weighted average price of the past 15 days (21.35p) as per previously announced conversion terms, but at 25p (par price of the shares). Why has Bracknor elected to pay a 17% premium?
Published 68 days ago
Well it looks as though D-day is today after all for the triggering of an EGM to drop the nominal (par) price of AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) stock so as to allow Bracknor to resume its convert-and-dump operations. With the shares edging a little higher this morning, one is tempted to wonder whether some heavy boardroom buying might be enough to lift the shares back over the 27.5p mark just in the nick of time. But there is a fair way to go, with the stock still 2.25p short of salvation.
Published 71 days ago
Under its Bracknor death-spiral funding package, AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has to call an EGM proposing resolutions to drop the current nominal, or “par”, 25p price of its shares by at least half in the event of 10 consecutive closes below 110% of nominal (ie below 27.5p). But the company has never defined the closing price used: is it mid-price, bid-price, offer-price at close, or perhaps some more convoluted closing daily VWAP (volume weighted average price) calculation? But one thing is for sure, the match is right next to the blue touch-paper. Is it today or Monday, fellas?
Published 74 days ago
Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has announced that NED and highly respected senior clinical oncologist at Great Ormond St and Barts Dr Nick Plowman “will” invest £250,000 in the company – at 30p a share, a 36% premium to last week’s close. Why am I not convinced that this morning’s announcement is anything other than the most desperate of spoofs in a long line of spoofs here?
Published 76 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has a calendar year-end and as such its six-month deadline to publish accounts falls on 30 June – the end of next month. That means getting an audit done which will involve, amongst other things, agreeing the Going Concern statement. Yesterday’s share price plunge might have more than a small bearing on how conversations go in that regard.
Published 77 days ago
Shares in AIM dog Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) closed Friday at just 21p. That is below the 25p nominal meaning that death spiral provider Bracknor cannot convert any more loan notes without taking a huge loss and, if that continues, it means the company will go tits up in the summer. Or the former Malcolm Stacey darling will need to approve a capital reconstruction to set a new nominal (2.5p?) which will see the shares plunge, so meaning Bracknor physically can't convert loan notes so Advanced will go tits up this summer. So when will its shares hit 0p or be suspended from AIM? Vote now in our reader poll - deadline midnight tonight.
Published 78 days ago
You can’t say you have not been warned. This morning shares in AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) have fallen firmly below the nominal 25p price of the confetti. Companies are not allowed to issue shares below their nominal price and that, in turn, means that for the time being Bracknor is lobster-potted with something like £2.5 million of convertible (death-spiral) loans which it cannot convert. My heart bleeds….
Published 79 days ago
Oh dear. Oh dearie me. AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has released a TR-1 from institutional investor Aviva showing that it has been dumping shares and went below the disclosable threshold to 2.44% last Friday in terms of its directly held interests. It had a further 0.66% interest via loaned out shares. Meanwhile Advanced Onco shares today fell below the 25p nominal price of its confetti, leaving death-spiral funder Bracknor in a bit of a pickle just five days after ponying up tranche 2 of convertible loans which it can’t convert for less than 25p. Ouch.
Published 85 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has announced this morning the drawdown of the second tranche of £1.3 million (nominal - £1.235 million after the 5% discount) on its convertible loan note (aka death spiral) package with Bracknor. Good news – the lights will stay on for a few weeks extra. But the second half of the statement is a bit of a puzzle, raising more questions than it seemingly tries to answer.
Published 86 days ago
Well that explains it then! Yesterday I noted my amazement that AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) had issued yet another ramparoonie director share purchase RNS on Tuesday and that the shares had raced back above not only the all-important 27.5p mark, but above 30p. Now we know why: Executive Chairman Dr Michael Sinclair was in the market filling his boots with 200,000 shares at an average price of 30.44p. Shame he didn’t pile in when the shares were hovering around the 26p mark so as to save himself a few quid.
Published 87 days ago
At no-one-is-watching o’clock last night (5.48 pm) AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) slipped out an announcement that it had drawn the £2m second tranche of cash available under its one-year loan deal with Blackfinch. With my maths suggesting that the company was close to running on fumes that extra £2m to keep the show on the road pro tem will come in handy.
Published 88 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) – teetering on the brink of having to call an EGM to reduce its nominal share capital under the terms of its death-spiral funding package with Bracknor – has announced yet another director share purchase, the fourth just this month (if we ignore the botched 7am RNS of 4 April). As ever, this is just a spoof in order to encourage more buying in the market so as to allow Bracknor to offload more of its death-spiral conversion shares as Advanced hopes and prays for the next £1.235 million tranche of funding before the coffers run dry.
Published 92 days ago
As shares in AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) again sit below that all-important 27.5p mark which, if continued for 10 trading days, will trigger a EGM to reduce the nominal value of the company’s shares, a quick trip to the Companies House website reveals the debenture paperwork (HERE) related to the company’s recently announced loan deal (with spoof 100p conversion terms) with Blackfinch as announced on 27 March (HERE). Most of it is legalese, but on page 36 we get some cracking tit-bits. Such as the planned expenditure on the Harley Street premises (some £19.14 million) as against potential resale values of between £9.44 million and £10.71 million – and that is just for the kit and fitting, not for the value of the property itself. As security (including the property) for a £3 million loan (with an option for a further £2 million) it is quite something!
Published 94 days ago
This morning AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) announced another conversion by Bracknor. Having previously converted three lumps of £100,000 of death spiral loans, Bracknor has gone for £200,000 worth this time – but at the lowest price yet, just 26.74p. That leaves things looking decidedly sticky for the company, which got authority to issue Bracknor with enough loan conversion shares based on the assumption of an average loan conversion price of 44p and the associated warrants at 57p.
Published 100 days ago
Under its death spiral funding package with Bracknor, AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has to call an EGM to seek shareholder approval to reduce the nominal price of its shares (currently 25p) by at least half if the closing share price is below 110% of nominal (ie 27.5p) for ten consecutive trading days. And that brings us to the latest spoof director share purchase announced this morning (which hasn’t worked: the shares are down 4% last seen this morning).
Published 102 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has this morning announced another loan conversion by its white knight death spiral funding provider Bracknor. The lack of liquidity of late makes it hard to imagine that Bracknor is having an easy time offloading. Meanwhile the shares have again slipped and now sit below the threshold at which an EGM to reduce the nominal price of the shares is triggered. Oh dear….
Published 105 days ago
AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has announced a second conversion of death-spiral loan by Bracknor. As per the first conversion, it is £100,000 (nominal) but this time the conversion price was just 27.89p. Given that the recent EGM gave approval for the company to convert the full package at an average 44p per share that might mean a bit of a headache.
Published 108 days ago
It seems that AIM-listed Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) is so desperate to get out any good news it can that it rushed out an RNS yesterday morning to notify the market of director buying and got the numbers wrong. Oops. Great work in checking and verifying there by Nomad Stockdale Securities.
Published 117 days ago
Ho ho ho. Even as it faces insolvency those wags at Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) do so with a sense of humour as they try to spoof us all with news of an even more desperate financing which will keep the lights on until late June. Dr Michael Sinclair you should go on the stage. You really are a hoot.
Published 120 days ago
It is just eight days to the GM of Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) where shareholders are being asked to approve the issue of gazillions of new shares for the Bracknor death spiral. Since the alternative is going bust within weeks if not days then the result is a gimme although I intend attending - as the owner of 1 share - to ask some searching questions. But the collapse in the share price - the stock is now 31.5p mid, 30p bid tells you there are even bigger issues and that Advanced is, quite possibly toast whatever.
Published 121 days ago
Clearly this is the story of the day. I reflect on this from various angles. I then move onto Franchise Brands (FRAN) shares in which surged 16% forcing a suspension. No insider dealing here guv, walk on, walk on. Then it is onto Bowleven (BLVN), Yolo (YOLO), Starcom (STAR) which I may have called Starvest but I meant Starcom, Van Elle (VANL), Nyota (NYO) and finally the uber dog Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) which is in freefall. Hah! Death spiral shylocks Bracknor your spoof is not working is it! On the subject of terror I mention that evil bastard Martin McGuinness.You should not speak ill of the dead but for this unapologetic murderer and for those in the media who praise him as a good man I make an exception HERE. Mr McGuinness was a wicked man who sought no salvation in apology and repentance and, if there is a hell, his soul is right now burning at the heart of it.
Published 123 days ago
Death spiral provider Bracknor does not buy shares in companies. It loans the desperate, cash at pound of flesh rates which it then converts into shares at discounted rates and flogs to mug punters. That is the classic death spiral model. But to get such a death spiral away it needs a perception of market liquidity and also to avoid a complete short term collapse of the share price. And that brings us to Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO).
Published 128 days ago
Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) is, as you know, utterly desperate to create buying interest in its shares so that death spiral shysters Bracknor can dump £13.7 million of equity onto the market over the next year. That is not going well and so Advanced today boasts that it has paid investment analyst prostitutes for hire, Hardman, to publish a glossy note. This report is so unbelievably unbalanced that I can only assume that Hardman outsourced the work to the Bulletin Board Morons on the LSE Asylum. Folks can see through this shite and the shares are down by a penny at just 40p bid which is very bad news for Advanced as explained HERE.
Published 133 days ago
I have already covered the admissions (HERE) and lies (HERE) flagged up in today's notice of a GM published by Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO). The great news is that the GM is on March 31 in London, a day when I shall be in the Capital. As the proud owner of 1 share bought earlier this week I shall be there for a bunfight. Just 32p for so much fun - bargain! Get your beer & popcorn ready. Why not come along to join me in giving the board hell over all the lies and other matters? There is free beer on me at Wedge Issue afterwards. But there is a far more serious problem for the shysters.
Published 134 days ago
Heading to zero, serial liar Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has today called a GM to approve the issue of a blizzard of shares to obliterate its share price via death spiral. More on that later but the documentation throws up another issue other than the lies refered to earlier HERE, why will Advanced NOT come clean on short selling by death spiral provider Bracknor.
Published 134 days ago
Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has today called its GM to approve the issuance of more shares to feed the Bracknor Death Spiral - more on that later for the document is, like the company, a joke. But first lets go to a big fat monstrous lie it told last year to help get that bailout placing away in September.
Published 136 days ago
Shares in Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) are sliding again today. Last time I looked they were 32p bid and they are heading rapidly towards the 25p mark at which point Bracknor will not be able to forward sell/convert loan notes as explained HERE without GM sanction. Thus the loan shark death spiral provider - which is pro tem exposed to the tune of well over £1 million will be flogging shares as fast as it can. Meanwhile Advanced just won't answer my 16 questions HERE. But there is something else going on which you can see if you check out the Bulletin Boards and it is quite remarkable and shows this company is toast.
Published 137 days ago
For years Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) has ramped its shares to get away placing after placing with ramptastic investor presentations. But that was before I started asking all those horrible questions for which there was no answer. and Winnileaks started obtaining toxic leaked emails. Last night the company had a presentation in London. It has another in Zurich this morning. Warning Swiss folk and tax dodgers quotes about the London chinwag include "everyone left unhappy" and from a long term bull "I am just throwing in the towel." The shares have crashed by 23% to 36p bid so far today. The target for me remains 0p. But for those folks going to the Zurich meeting here here are 15 questions Advanced can't or won't answer:
Published 138 days ago
When AIM uber dog Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) announced that instead of going for non dilutive funding ( as no-one would provide it) it was being forced to resort to a dreadful £13 million death spiral from loan sharks Bracknor, its shares were 65p. When the death spiral started the shares were 58p. Now it just £100,000 of the death spiral loan notes on the first £1.3 million tranche converted, the shares are just 43p to sell. Bracknor now has three reasons to panic.
Published 142 days ago
Hallelujah! Xtract Resources (XTR) finally managed to issue the long-awaited DFS at 4.23pm on 28 February. It’s taken me a bit of time to comment on it as I’ve been scratching my head thinking to myself: “Is that it? Is there a page missing? What now?”
Published 144 days ago
Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) the company with sod all cash, that is a cash guzzler, with no sales and which has persistently misled both investors and customers has moved up a gear with its death spiral funding and the shares have fallen again to just 49p to sell. Boy how sleazey former director, the Blair crony, Lord Evans of Watford must be glad that he dumped all his shares at 120p just ahead of the last big placing and during a closed period. And there has been no sanction at all. Bully for him. Now back to the death spiral.
Published 145 days ago
If you had raised £10 million for the AIM dog Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) less than 5 months ago at 100p then your stance on the stock - at 54p-58p- would be some sort of buy. Oh no. broker Beaufort who did indeed raise that cash has today downgraded its stance to, what may be termed a corporate "hold" (i.e. sell) and makes it clear that the shares will fall allowing lower entry points. I should cocoa. Beaufort today opines after the Bracknor death spiral announcement of Friday - the underlines are mine:
Published 146 days ago
Having promised "non dilutive funding" ad nauseam, on Wednesday AIM listed POS Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) announced a £13 million death spiral funding with are shylocks Bracknor. On Friday it drew down tranche one and promptly served up another dose of smoke and mirrors for punters. The death spiral dance is now underway. Advanced announced that:
Published 148 days ago
Yesterday I pointed out how the £13 million death spiral Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) had signed with loan sharks Bracknor would see its share price collapse. It should but there is worse news in store - that of insolvency looming in just five weeks time. Insolvency you say? What are you talking about? Let me explain.
Published 149 days ago
I have noted before that some death spirals are in fact a decent way for companies to raise cash, cheaper and less share price destructive than a bucket shop placing. But the Bracknor deal announced today by Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO), which had promised non dilutive funding but clearly does not mean a word it says, as I explained here earlier, is a total rotter. It will crater the share price as Bracknor makes a killing. Let me explain why.
Published 150 days ago
Serial misleader and worthless bag of AIM listed shite Advanced Oncotherapy (AVO) today announced that it has secured death spiral financing for £13-26 million from the lowest of the low DS funders, Bracknor. That is bad enough and will see the shares forward sold to buggery, as I will outline in a separate piece. What is worse is that it exposes Advanced for again misleading investors.
Published 243 days ago
At 6.15pm on Friday – truly no-one-is-watching o’clock – AIM-listed Vast Resources (VAST) released an RNS detailing the exercise of warrants and consequent issue of equity. It is comedy central. Perhaps readers can explain the 10% commission part…..
Published 254 days ago
Déjà vu this morning with the announcement from Roy Pitchford at Vast Resources (VAST) earlier today as he announced that it was ditching the Bracknor facility, presumably as he realised that it wasn’t doing wonders for the share price. Well, at least you realised before causing any further damage.
Published 274 days ago
Continuing our wanderings through the accounts of those who promote and look after companies listed on the Casino, we turn here to the FY (to Mar 16) accounts of Northland Capital Partners – Nomad to such fine enterprises such as AIM-listed Edenville Energy (EDL) and the now executed Eastbridge Investments (EBIV), Broker to AIM-listed Octagonal (OCT) and introducers of Vast Resources (VAST) to the fine fellows at Bracknor. A truly magnificent contribution to life on the Casino I’m sure we all agree.
Published 282 days ago
Shitty little AIM Companies such as Vast Resources (VAST) would be better off borrowing on the company credit card than dealing with loan sharks such as Bracknor and Northland Capital. To add insult to injury Vast describes as $2 million loan today as interest free. Bollocks. It is even more expensive as the infamous loan from fragrant Katrina Clayton the wife of the FD at FRAUD African Potash (AFPO).
Published 354 days ago
I’ve been following the antics of Sanderson Capital Partners for a while now and yesterday’s latest shocking funding deal with Eurasia Mining (EUA) has tipped me over the edge and forced me to write.
Published 360 days ago
I was delighted to read this morning’s RNS from AIM-listed cancer-buster ValiRx (VAL): it has ditched the value-destroying funding package with Bracknor. About time too, this has been a disaster for the share price ever since it was announced back in March. With the shares having crashed from 12.5p the day before the package was announced to the current 6.875p (last seen) the damage has been horrific.
Published 389 days ago
I highlighted yesterday that it seemed to me that the failure of shareholders in AIM-listed cancer-buster ValiRx to pass a special resolution at last week’s AGM to disapply pre-emption rights cast a bit of a shadow over the company’s funding arrangements. In a move straight out of the EU rulebook on democracy, shareholders are to be given the (ahem) opportunity to vote again in the hope of coming up with the right answer this time.
Published 390 days ago
Shareholders in AIM-listed cancer-buster ValiRx (VAL) rejected a disapplication of pre-emption rights special resolution at the AGM held last Monday. The company said a further announcement would follow “in due course” but since then there has been silence. But it seems that there might be a few implications for the financing of the company going forward.
Published 409 days ago
This morning saw AIM-listed ValiRx (VAL) appoint Beaufort Securities as Joint Broker. This coincided with a quarterly update RNS full of good news and Beaufort included a generous write-up in today’s morning note, with a “speculative buy” rating. All jolly good, but I fear that yet more errors have been made by the company.
Published 429 days ago
After-hours (natch) yesterday AIM-listed biotech ValiRx (VAL) released an RNS announcing the drawdown of the second £500,000 tranche (of up to eight) of its convertible death spiral funding package with Bracknor. We were also told that half of it had already been converted, with reference made to the terms set out in an RNS of 21 March 2016. But the numbers simply don’t add up – oh, and the company had now admitted that associated warrants will have to be approved by shareholders.
Published 438 days ago
AIM-listed ValiRx (VAL) operates in the biotech space, developing cancer drugs. I’ve been pretty beastly in previous pieces (see HERE) but I am pleased to note that the company has seen fit to address the questions asked over Companies House filings. As pointed out HERE they were indeed wrong and they have now been corrected. Good news. My hope is that the questions over the Bracknor funding deal will now be addressed.
Published 474 days ago
Yesterday I had a few comments to offer with regard to AIM-listed ValiRx (VAL) and its £4 million (or is it £8.6 million, or is it £8.6 million plus proceeds from exercise of 5 million warrants at 9p?) CUL deal with Bracknor. My fear is that details of that deal offered up in the RNS of 21 March 2015 look (from Friday’s RNS) to have been incredibly lacking. But wandering over to the Companies House website leaves me wondering if the company can’t get simple Companies House filings right, what hope is there for the mechanics of a complex CUL deal to be fully understood and conveyed to shareholders?
Published 475 days ago
On 21 March this year, AIM-listed ValiRx (VAL) announced a convertible loan facility with Bracknor Fund Ltd. It was announced that the company could draw down up to £4 million in tranches of £500,000. But it seems that some of the information given was either wrong or just missing, not to mention a small problem of share issuance authorities which look to be insufficient to seal the deal. Having had no reply to two emails sent to the company, I am assuming that the conclusions I have come to are correct. It is not pretty.